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	<title>Comments on: Urine: Closing the NPK Loop</title>
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		<title>By: Adam T</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2011/11/27/urine-closing-the-npk-loop/#comment-223825</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2011 10:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=6640#comment-223825</guid>
		<description>Good points you&#039;ve raised Harry and Mark. Until water treatment improves then i wouldn&#039;t want to consume anything that has grown in that water. Luckily most of the potable water in Melbourne, Australia comes from mountain reservoirs and treated water is released back into the bay near some estuaries. Admittedly i know little about how well treated it is. Filtering water through activated charcoal is actually a good way to remove many chemical impurities if you are concerned about ingesting chemicals in your tap water (esp around the Great Lakes region).

To answer Harry&#039;s question about natural hormones, yes they would be more readily degraded, the rough general rule is that bacteria have a harder time breaking larger more complex molecules. My concern about hormones isnt so much about the plants taking it up, its more about the soil life, worms and insects etc that ultimately end up in the chickens and their eggs that supply my family.

I&#039;m a pharmacist by trade(hence the interest in biochemistry) and have a love of sustainability. I practice permaculture myself, but I&#039;ve simply identified some concerns i would have in my previous response with contaminants in urine. Personally i refrain from taking medicines unless required, but it&#039;s also part of my profession to understand that many people require pharmaceutical help and that its not feasible to avoid them altogether.

My system at home includes chickens and quite a few ponds with many types of aquatic life. Any pharmaceutical presence will be directly relayed back to my family via the chickens and also contaminate the ponds and  treasured native frogs. This is an important point for those interested in aquaponics.  Amphibians and fish are a very sensitive lot, and Harry you are correct about organophosphates, medicines arent exclusively the only lot affect them. I would come to the conclusion that the use of urine in food crops is best for the undeveloped world where pharmaceutical intrusion is at a minimum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points you&#8217;ve raised Harry and Mark. Until water treatment improves then i wouldn&#8217;t want to consume anything that has grown in that water. Luckily most of the potable water in Melbourne, Australia comes from mountain reservoirs and treated water is released back into the bay near some estuaries. Admittedly i know little about how well treated it is. Filtering water through activated charcoal is actually a good way to remove many chemical impurities if you are concerned about ingesting chemicals in your tap water (esp around the Great Lakes region).</p>
<p>To answer Harry&#8217;s question about natural hormones, yes they would be more readily degraded, the rough general rule is that bacteria have a harder time breaking larger more complex molecules. My concern about hormones isnt so much about the plants taking it up, its more about the soil life, worms and insects etc that ultimately end up in the chickens and their eggs that supply my family.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a pharmacist by trade(hence the interest in biochemistry) and have a love of sustainability. I practice permaculture myself, but I&#8217;ve simply identified some concerns i would have in my previous response with contaminants in urine. Personally i refrain from taking medicines unless required, but it&#8217;s also part of my profession to understand that many people require pharmaceutical help and that its not feasible to avoid them altogether.</p>
<p>My system at home includes chickens and quite a few ponds with many types of aquatic life. Any pharmaceutical presence will be directly relayed back to my family via the chickens and also contaminate the ponds and  treasured native frogs. This is an important point for those interested in aquaponics.  Amphibians and fish are a very sensitive lot, and Harry you are correct about organophosphates, medicines arent exclusively the only lot affect them. I would come to the conclusion that the use of urine in food crops is best for the undeveloped world where pharmaceutical intrusion is at a minimum.</p>
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		<title>By: jennie</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2011/11/27/urine-closing-the-npk-loop/#comment-223345</link>
		<dc:creator>jennie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2011 16:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=6640#comment-223345</guid>
		<description>If you like this idea, you can also try using urine for your laundry - by the way, it does get rinsed out in the end if that is your concern - and it has been used by the Eygptians, Romans and East Indians for centuries to clean laundry. I do it - and have clean and fresh-smelling clothes and a cleaner concience for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you like this idea, you can also try using urine for your laundry &#8211; by the way, it does get rinsed out in the end if that is your concern &#8211; and it has been used by the Eygptians, Romans and East Indians for centuries to clean laundry. I do it &#8211; and have clean and fresh-smelling clothes and a cleaner concience for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Feineigle</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2011/11/27/urine-closing-the-npk-loop/#comment-222538</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Feineigle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 12:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=6640#comment-222538</guid>
		<description>Adam T, many US water treatment facilities specifically do not even treat for many of the chemicals you&#039;ve listed. If you drink tap water in the US, you are most likely exposing yourself already.

Disease management is not a problem; storage times of 1-6 months will kill all pathogens. For a deeper analysis, see the Practical Guidance on the Use of Urine in Crop Production (1.6mb PDF) linked at the bottom of the article.

If the collection and treatment is occurring in the developed world on an industrial scale, it would be treated for pharmaceuticals during the storage phase. If it is occurring in the developed world at the home scale, the residual in the urine from medication could be an issue. I would wager the plants won&#039;t actively take in the bad chemicals as long as the soil is fertile, if the buildup from a single family would even be enough to warrant concern.

In the developed world, you are right there is very little concern for medical contamination at either the industrial or family level. Again, disease management is a very small concern at both the family level, where you are more likely to spread disease person to person, and on the industrial level, where long storage times assure total pathogen destruction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam T, many US water treatment facilities specifically do not even treat for many of the chemicals you&#8217;ve listed. If you drink tap water in the US, you are most likely exposing yourself already.</p>
<p>Disease management is not a problem; storage times of 1-6 months will kill all pathogens. For a deeper analysis, see the Practical Guidance on the Use of Urine in Crop Production (1.6mb PDF) linked at the bottom of the article.</p>
<p>If the collection and treatment is occurring in the developed world on an industrial scale, it would be treated for pharmaceuticals during the storage phase. If it is occurring in the developed world at the home scale, the residual in the urine from medication could be an issue. I would wager the plants won&#8217;t actively take in the bad chemicals as long as the soil is fertile, if the buildup from a single family would even be enough to warrant concern.</p>
<p>In the developed world, you are right there is very little concern for medical contamination at either the industrial or family level. Again, disease management is a very small concern at both the family level, where you are more likely to spread disease person to person, and on the industrial level, where long storage times assure total pathogen destruction.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry Harrison</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2011/11/27/urine-closing-the-npk-loop/#comment-221970</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=6640#comment-221970</guid>
		<description>Crazy that we are treating sewage and still releasing chemical contaminants. Another good reason not to take prescription or other drugs tho in reality it&#039;s rampant. 
My understanding is that many of the &quot;hormonal&quot; changes seen in wildlife are related to organophosphate pesticides which may mimic the molecular structures of hormones.
Natural oestrogenic compounds are not uncommon in plants. Subterainian clover is one example of many. Progesterones also used for the pill are common in plants. Are the natural forms more readily biodegraded?
There is a plethora of other drugs which may be more harmful at low levels particularly immunomodulators used in chemotherapeutics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crazy that we are treating sewage and still releasing chemical contaminants. Another good reason not to take prescription or other drugs tho in reality it&#8217;s rampant.<br />
My understanding is that many of the &#8220;hormonal&#8221; changes seen in wildlife are related to organophosphate pesticides which may mimic the molecular structures of hormones.<br />
Natural oestrogenic compounds are not uncommon in plants. Subterainian clover is one example of many. Progesterones also used for the pill are common in plants. Are the natural forms more readily biodegraded?<br />
There is a plethora of other drugs which may be more harmful at low levels particularly immunomodulators used in chemotherapeutics.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Adam T</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2011/11/27/urine-closing-the-npk-loop/#comment-221919</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=6640#comment-221919</guid>
		<description>One major concern this article has only briefly mentioned is the contamination of urine with prescription medicines. Popular hysteria concentrates on antibiotics, but the greater long term problem is with oestrogens (originating from the pill), antipsychotics, antidepressants and countless other drug molecules which are also excreted in urine. US studies of river water show that even after sewage treatment these drugs can still be released in the water, and have subsequently been found in the tissue of fish and other aquatic life. Oestrogens have especially contributed to sexual malformations in amphibians.  Evidently there are drug molecules that are resistant to biodegradation (chemical recalcitrance*) so you should consider that before you add urine into your food chain. (As a point of interest, many antibiotics are easily degraded and don’t last long in the environment).

Pros:
-In the less developed world where people are less likely to have access to prescription medicines, the use of urine can be justified (however disease management becomes the priority).
- Indeed the use of urine closes the NPK loop, and where possible we should really return the fertility back to the fields provided that fertility doesn’t harbour long term contaminants.

Cons:
- Due to medical confidentiality, some people will prefer to keep their medical conditions private even with family members, and they are entitled to. This presents the problem that you will never know whether the urine is truly clean of pharmaceuticals. 
- No guest is going to surrender their private ailments and medication list to their host, and so there&#039;s another complication if they need to use the household bathroom.
- The use of urine as fertiliser is probably less feasible in the developed world due to these reasons. If its use is insisted on, then perhaps including it in hot composting can reduce the risks. Both heat and microbial degradation will help to reduce soil contamination. Risk management is ultimately up to the individual.  

*Reference: MICROBIOLOGY 4th Edition- Prescott, Harley, Klein.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One major concern this article has only briefly mentioned is the contamination of urine with prescription medicines. Popular hysteria concentrates on antibiotics, but the greater long term problem is with oestrogens (originating from the pill), antipsychotics, antidepressants and countless other drug molecules which are also excreted in urine. US studies of river water show that even after sewage treatment these drugs can still be released in the water, and have subsequently been found in the tissue of fish and other aquatic life. Oestrogens have especially contributed to sexual malformations in amphibians.  Evidently there are drug molecules that are resistant to biodegradation (chemical recalcitrance*) so you should consider that before you add urine into your food chain. (As a point of interest, many antibiotics are easily degraded and don’t last long in the environment).</p>
<p>Pros:<br />
-In the less developed world where people are less likely to have access to prescription medicines, the use of urine can be justified (however disease management becomes the priority).<br />
- Indeed the use of urine closes the NPK loop, and where possible we should really return the fertility back to the fields provided that fertility doesn’t harbour long term contaminants.</p>
<p>Cons:<br />
- Due to medical confidentiality, some people will prefer to keep their medical conditions private even with family members, and they are entitled to. This presents the problem that you will never know whether the urine is truly clean of pharmaceuticals.<br />
- No guest is going to surrender their private ailments and medication list to their host, and so there&#8217;s another complication if they need to use the household bathroom.<br />
- The use of urine as fertiliser is probably less feasible in the developed world due to these reasons. If its use is insisted on, then perhaps including it in hot composting can reduce the risks. Both heat and microbial degradation will help to reduce soil contamination. Risk management is ultimately up to the individual.  </p>
<p>*Reference: MICROBIOLOGY 4th Edition- Prescott, Harley, Klein.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergi</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2011/11/27/urine-closing-the-npk-loop/#comment-221302</link>
		<dc:creator>Sergi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 06:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=6640#comment-221302</guid>
		<description>This is an excellent article and thank you Mark. Extremely practical and of particular importance for both the &#039;developed&#039; and &#039;developing&#039; world</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an excellent article and thank you Mark. Extremely practical and of particular importance for both the &#8216;developed&#8217; and &#8216;developing&#8217; world</p>
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		<title>By: fred and mary</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2011/11/27/urine-closing-the-npk-loop/#comment-221239</link>
		<dc:creator>fred and mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 02:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=6640#comment-221239</guid>
		<description>Thanks for a great article! I bought a book, Liquid Gold, several years ago and have been collecting my urine in a urinal (like used in hospitals) for a couple of years to use as fertilizer and a great compost activator if used full strength. Also pour it straight (full strength) on our sheet mulching areas to help break down leaves and other organic matter we place over the cardboard to make beds ready for Spring planting. Only problem is that I cannot get my wife to use her urinal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for a great article! I bought a book, Liquid Gold, several years ago and have been collecting my urine in a urinal (like used in hospitals) for a couple of years to use as fertilizer and a great compost activator if used full strength. Also pour it straight (full strength) on our sheet mulching areas to help break down leaves and other organic matter we place over the cardboard to make beds ready for Spring planting. Only problem is that I cannot get my wife to use her urinal.</p>
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