Comments on: Surviving in the Cash Economy Once Your Food Forest is Established http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/ Permaculture News, Commentary and Worldwide Projects. Tue, 22 May 2012 14:23:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Pete Kennedy http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/#comment-87483 Pete Kennedy Thu, 19 May 2011 11:40:42 +0000 http://permaculture.org.au/?p=4494#comment-87483 Also, possibly more valuable is that permaculture (often referred to as "ecological agriculture") has made its way quite strongly into the development literature. It is becoming an accepted and promoted practise in journals such as the Journal of Sustainable Development and World Ecology. Hopefully this might result in permaculture being more widely used in Governments development and aid programs. Also, possibly more valuable is that permaculture (often referred to as “ecological agriculture”) has made its way quite strongly into the development literature. It is becoming an accepted and promoted practise in journals such as the Journal of Sustainable Development and World Ecology. Hopefully this might result in permaculture being more widely used in Governments development and aid programs.

]]> By: Pete Kennedy http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/#comment-87480 Pete Kennedy Thu, 19 May 2011 11:30:48 +0000 http://permaculture.org.au/?p=4494#comment-87480 An interesting discussion! Currently studying at a major British University, I can contribute somewhat to the debate. Last year I attended an ecology module titled "Sustainable Agro-Ecosystems". It was very interesting! It covered a lot of things that permaculturists are very interested in, such as mycorrhizal fungi, composting and interplanting. It also criticized the daylights out of the conventional agricultural system. Whilst Permaculture is both an art and a science, there are important contributions that science can and should make to our design. Most beneficial, I think, is in identifying niches and uses of different components in the system. For example, whilst I have read much about mychorrhizal fungi in permaculture circles, I learnt something new, perhaps unknown: many mychorrhizal fungi can digest rock and make the minerals available to plant growth. The knowledge of this may add new interactions in our permaculture designs. Every time that we experiment with new combinations of plants in our gardens, we are partaking in science. However, most of us lack the equipment and methods to uncover what is really going on. Institutional science contributes greatly here. However, what I have outlined are merely species interactions and the like. It doesn't appear that there has been much rigorous analysis of permaculture as a system. In this agroecosystems module, the lecturer discussed various proposals for "sustainable" systems. Permaculture, he concluded, seemed the most promising. I admit, I felt a great sense of validation in hearing a "scientist" confirm what I had believed for a few years! He sadly did not expand too much on this, nor point to any significant research. Still, it highlights that permaculture IS making its way onto the academic radar and gaining recognition. What has been said by previous posters, that we must avoid spurious, pseudo-scientific claims, is essential to bear in mind. This lecturer labelled biodynamics as ridiculous, based on practices such as burying cow horns filled with manure in order to channel cosmic energies etc. We must keep our claims sensible and avoid delving into strange ideas, or else alienate scientists and the population at large. For most people (as I have experienced when trying to explain permaculture to family and friends) the idea that we might possibly feed the world without tractors, fertilizers and pesticides is hard enough to get their heads around. We don't want to be complicating things further, confusing promising reality with irrational obsurdity. An interesting discussion!
Currently studying at a major British University, I can contribute somewhat to the debate.
Last year I attended an ecology module titled “Sustainable Agro-Ecosystems”. It was very interesting! It covered a lot of things that permaculturists are very interested in, such as mycorrhizal fungi, composting and interplanting. It also criticized the daylights out of the conventional agricultural system.
Whilst Permaculture is both an art and a science, there are important contributions that science can and should make to our design. Most beneficial, I think, is in identifying niches and uses of different components in the system. For example, whilst I have read much about mychorrhizal fungi in permaculture circles, I learnt something new, perhaps unknown: many mychorrhizal fungi can digest rock and make the minerals available to plant growth. The knowledge of this may add new interactions in our permaculture designs.
Every time that we experiment with new combinations of plants in our gardens, we are partaking in science. However, most of us lack the equipment and methods to uncover what is really going on. Institutional science contributes greatly here.

However, what I have outlined are merely species interactions and the like. It doesn’t appear that there has been much rigorous analysis of permaculture as a system. In this agroecosystems module, the lecturer discussed various proposals for “sustainable” systems. Permaculture, he concluded, seemed the most promising. I admit, I felt a great sense of validation in hearing a “scientist” confirm what I had believed for a few years! He sadly did not expand too much on this, nor point to any significant research. Still, it highlights that permaculture IS making its way onto the academic radar and gaining recognition.

What has been said by previous posters, that we must avoid spurious, pseudo-scientific claims, is essential to bear in mind. This lecturer labelled biodynamics as ridiculous, based on practices such as burying cow horns filled with manure in order to channel cosmic energies etc. We must keep our claims sensible and avoid delving into strange ideas, or else alienate scientists and the population at large. For most people (as I have experienced when trying to explain permaculture to family and friends) the idea that we might possibly feed the world without tractors, fertilizers and pesticides is hard enough to get their heads around. We don’t want to be complicating things further, confusing promising reality with irrational obsurdity.

]]> By: Judith http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/#comment-73196 Judith Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:41:15 +0000 http://permaculture.org.au/?p=4494#comment-73196 Richard Alan Miller will be teaching a workshop in Hawaii on: Herb and Spice Farming Alternatives for Hawaii Sunday, March 27, 2011 More information at: http://www.nwbotanicals.org/hawaii_2011.html Richard Alan Miller will be teaching a workshop in Hawaii on:

Herb and Spice Farming Alternatives for Hawaii

Sunday, March 27, 2011

More information at:
http://www.nwbotanicals.org/hawaii_2011.html

]]> By: Matthew Lynch http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/#comment-60663 Matthew Lynch Thu, 23 Dec 2010 17:49:45 +0000 http://permaculture.org.au/?p=4494#comment-60663 Wendi, I would be interested in connecting with you about your research; specifically, about what kind of metrics you are interested in tracking when following up with PDC graduates. Am currently working with some other permaculture educators to develop insitutionally-recognized pathways to learning, and your perspective and insights could prove to be very valuable here. I've also got some practical experience with, and thoughts on barriers to mainstream adoption that would be fascinating to discuss with you from your academic perspective. My extensive work in financial education, non-profit management, and [most recently and certainly less extensive] sustainable overseas aid & development help to inform my perspective. Please contact me directly: theGreenBackpack@gmail.com. Happy Holidays! Wendi, I would be interested in connecting with you about your research; specifically, about what kind of metrics you are interested in tracking when following up with PDC graduates.

Am currently working with some other permaculture educators to develop insitutionally-recognized pathways to learning, and your perspective and insights could prove to be very valuable here.

I’ve also got some practical experience with, and thoughts on barriers to mainstream adoption that would be fascinating to discuss with you from your academic perspective. My extensive work in financial education, non-profit management, and [most recently and certainly less extensive] sustainable overseas aid & development help to inform my perspective.

Please contact me directly: theGreenBackpack@gmail.com.

Happy Holidays!

]]> By: Craig Mackintosh PRI Editor http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/#comment-58019 Craig Mackintosh PRI Editor Tue, 23 Nov 2010 19:01:00 +0000 http://permaculture.org.au/?p=4494#comment-58019 Hi Wendi - this system, once launched (soon!), will provide the best view on what people are doing post-course: http://permaculture.org.au/2010/09/25/worldwide-permaculture-network-teaser http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/18/worldwide-permaculture-network-database-update-beta-testing/ Hi Wendi – this system, once launched (soon!), will provide the best view on what people are doing post-course:

http://permaculture.org.au/2010/09/25/worldwide-permaculture-network-teaser

http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/18/worldwide-permaculture-network-database-update-beta-testing/

]]> By: Wendi Bellows http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/#comment-58018 Wendi Bellows Tue, 23 Nov 2010 18:57:17 +0000 http://permaculture.org.au/?p=4494#comment-58018 Also, another comment about permaculture and hard science. Permaculture is certainly scientific by its very nature. The study of integrated disciplines like agroecology, agroforestry and industrial ecology try to answer science related questions, but the reductionist science practiced at universities throughout the world does not allow for whole system design meta disciplines to be studied in the holistic sense. Systems may be picked apart and studied by people in labcoats, but the university is not an adequate institution to accept whole system design frameworks. Also, another comment about permaculture and hard science. Permaculture is certainly scientific by its very nature. The study of integrated disciplines like agroecology, agroforestry and industrial ecology try to answer science related questions, but the reductionist science practiced at universities throughout the world does not allow for whole system design meta disciplines to be studied in the holistic sense. Systems may be picked apart and studied by people in labcoats, but the university is not an adequate institution to accept whole system design frameworks.

]]> By: Wendi Bellows http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/#comment-58017 Wendi Bellows Tue, 23 Nov 2010 18:43:26 +0000 http://permaculture.org.au/?p=4494#comment-58017 What a fascinating conversation!...As a graduate student in the University of Florida's Interdisciplinary Ecology Program, past student of Permaculture Design Certification (2000), and Permie practitioner and evangelist, I plan to focus my doctoral dissertation on the issues discussed here. It has been such a challenge to permeate the university system with talk about permaculture! I am focusing on conducting sound social science pertaining to Permaculture teaching institutions, demonstration centers and behavior change. I am interested in understanding the barriers to mainstream adoption. I am also interested in understanding why or why not people who pay money to attend Permaculture certification courses as well as local peoples throughout the world who look to Permaculture demonstration sites for advice about how to sustain their livelihoods while living in harmony with the earth adopt Permaculture ethics, principles, and practices. My hopes are to essentially find out the barriers to successful adoption and how to overcome these barriers. Now, I know this may seem like a lofty goal, but as an organization focused on teaching this framework I believe that a standard follow up evaluation with folks is essential. Do you follow up with people after taking courses? In the vein of social science, how the courses have affected people's lives, livelihoods and behaviors? Do you know which ethics, principles and practices they are implementing? Do you know if practices are being applied to farms,homesteads, residential landscapes, etc? Any input from this bunch would be great! What a fascinating conversation!…As a graduate student in the University of Florida’s Interdisciplinary Ecology Program, past student of Permaculture Design Certification (2000), and Permie practitioner and evangelist, I plan to focus my doctoral dissertation on the issues discussed here. It has been such a challenge to permeate the university system with talk about permaculture! I am focusing on conducting sound social science pertaining to Permaculture teaching institutions, demonstration centers and behavior change. I am interested in understanding the barriers to mainstream adoption. I am also interested in understanding why or why not people who pay money to attend Permaculture certification courses as well as local peoples throughout the world who look to Permaculture
demonstration sites for advice about how to sustain their livelihoods while living in harmony with the earth adopt Permaculture ethics, principles, and practices. My hopes are to essentially find out the barriers to successful adoption and how to overcome these barriers. Now, I know this may seem like
a lofty goal, but as an organization focused on teaching this framework I believe that a standard follow up evaluation with folks is essential. Do you follow up with people after taking courses? In the vein of social science, how the courses have affected people’s lives, livelihoods and behaviors? Do you know which ethics, principles and practices they are implementing? Do you know if practices are being applied to farms,homesteads, residential landscapes, etc?

Any input from this bunch would be great!

]]> By: Thomas Fischbacher http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/#comment-56392 Thomas Fischbacher Sun, 07 Nov 2010 22:05:45 +0000 http://permaculture.org.au/?p=4494#comment-56392 Grahame, this isn't about "science in order to make permaculture appear more sciency". Getting people in white lab coats praise your work is what companies selling laundry detergents perhaps like to do. This is all about science as a by-product of diligent record-keeping. Grahame,

this isn’t about “science in order to make permaculture appear more sciency”. Getting people in white lab coats praise your work is what companies selling laundry detergents perhaps like to do. This is all about science as a by-product of diligent record-keeping.

]]> By: Grahame http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/#comment-56389 Grahame Sun, 07 Nov 2010 20:11:48 +0000 http://permaculture.org.au/?p=4494#comment-56389 This need for science in permaculture as a priority issue is something that pops up from time to time and while I agree that science can persuade some people to adopt new practices it won't convince all, enough or the right people. It may even galvanise their opposition. Surely the current debate on climate change is evidence enough of that? I personally don't think the 'science of permaculture' is what is limiting it's expansion and adoption, after all, many cultures practised permaculture long before structured science was ever thought of. How many people do you meet in the street wishing they could do something but feel they can't (at least in Australia I do)? They already understand that something must be done, no extra science is going to help them. It seems to me skill sets they feel they don't have or opportunities to do something is what they really need. Don't get me wrong, non-corporate funded science is all for the good, but I think there are other pressing needs too, particularly empowering people. After all the culture is the people and the people are the culture. This need for science in permaculture as a priority issue is something that pops up from time to time and while I agree that science can persuade some people to adopt new practices it won’t convince all, enough or the right people. It may even galvanise their opposition. Surely the current debate on climate change is evidence enough of that? I personally don’t think the ’science of permaculture’ is what is limiting it’s expansion and adoption, after all, many cultures practised permaculture long before structured science was ever thought of. How many people do you meet in the street wishing they could do something but feel they can’t (at least in Australia I do)? They already understand that something must be done, no extra science is going to help them. It seems to me skill sets they feel they don’t have or opportunities to do something is what they really need.

Don’t get me wrong, non-corporate funded science is all for the good, but I think there are other pressing needs too, particularly empowering people. After all the culture is the people and the people are the culture.

]]> By: Craig Mackintosh http://permaculture.org.au/2010/11/03/surviving-in-the-cash-economy-once-your-food-forest-is-established/#comment-56230 Craig Mackintosh Fri, 05 Nov 2010 16:21:53 +0000 http://permaculture.org.au/?p=4494#comment-56230 Adam, the PRI is doing its best to walk quite a tight rope. We're trying to upskill as many people as possible, and get them started in projects all over. Ideally all of these new projects, whether they be urban, residential, aid work, commercial, broadacre, whatever, would essentially become 'research centres' due to their keeping, as Thomas has astutely mentioned, good before/during/after data records on things like: - soil organic matter content - microorganism counts (indications from microscope observations) - worm counts - inputs - yields, and quality thereof - incidence of 'pest' issues - etc. etc. These are just points in regards to agriculture, but we need similar data recording in other permaculture areas - buildings, waste management, water harvesting, etc etc. The PRI tries to squeeze these things into its work as well, but for us it's made a little complicated as we're not working in 'best case' situations. Being educational, our work and our project site is more a playground for the inexperienced than an optimum site managed by a team of permaculture experts. If we were to transition to become solely a research station (I'd like to see such a research station in every region and climate zone by the way) then where would we get funding for such an endeavour? Geoff and others I could mention would make an awesome research team, potentially creating 'colour by numbers' urban design plans, for example, that anyone could implement and maintain. But, you can be sure that BigAgri won't help us here. So, we do what we can, and ask others to help spread the network and support research and project establishment wherever there are people with the will and wits to give it a try. In the meantime, we educate, educate, educate. Adam, the PRI is doing its best to walk quite a tight rope. We’re trying to upskill as many people as possible, and get them started in projects all over. Ideally all of these new projects, whether they be urban, residential, aid work, commercial, broadacre, whatever, would essentially become ‘research centres’ due to their keeping, as Thomas has astutely mentioned, good before/during/after data records on things like:

- soil organic matter content
- microorganism counts (indications from microscope observations)
- worm counts
- inputs
- yields, and quality thereof
- incidence of ‘pest’ issues
- etc. etc.

These are just points in regards to agriculture, but we need similar data recording in other permaculture areas – buildings, waste management, water harvesting, etc etc.

The PRI tries to squeeze these things into its work as well, but for us it’s made a little complicated as we’re not working in ‘best case’ situations. Being educational, our work and our project site is more a playground for the inexperienced than an optimum site managed by a team of permaculture experts.

If we were to transition to become solely a research station (I’d like to see such a research station in every region and climate zone by the way) then where would we get funding for such an endeavour? Geoff and others I could mention would make an awesome research team, potentially creating ‘colour by numbers’ urban design plans, for example, that anyone could implement and maintain. But, you can be sure that BigAgri won’t help us here. So, we do what we can, and ask others to help spread the network and support research and project establishment wherever there are people with the will and wits to give it a try. In the meantime, we educate, educate, educate.

]]>