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	<title>Comments on: Property Rights and Public Accommodations</title>
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		<title>By: Øyvind Holmstad</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/28/property-rights-and-public-accommodations/#comment-51368</link>
		<dc:creator>Øyvind Holmstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Aug 2010 11:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=3587#comment-51368</guid>
		<description>JBob, maybe Giorgio Agamben should interest you? See: http://www.iep.utm.edu/agamben/

I just read an article about him, and he states that you these days almost cannot move a muscle without the state has made laws and regulations about it. He tells you don’t need to be an anarchist to take up the fight against this terrible fact, but it helps.

So thank you JBob for fighting the state and status quo, even I’m not an anarchist myself I truly support your fight!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JBob, maybe Giorgio Agamben should interest you? See: <a href="http://www.iep.utm.edu/agamben/" rel="nofollow">http://www.iep.utm.edu/agamben/</a></p>
<p>I just read an article about him, and he states that you these days almost cannot move a muscle without the state has made laws and regulations about it. He tells you don’t need to be an anarchist to take up the fight against this terrible fact, but it helps.</p>
<p>So thank you JBob for fighting the state and status quo, even I’m not an anarchist myself I truly support your fight!</p>
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		<title>By: Øyvind Holmstad</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/28/property-rights-and-public-accommodations/#comment-51298</link>
		<dc:creator>Øyvind Holmstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Aug 2010 20:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=3587#comment-51298</guid>
		<description>Yes JBob, sometimes I wonder if anarchy would have been better. Because here in Norway you&#039;ll mostly be punished if you want to implement positive patterns. But what would it help if people don&#039;t have a clue about positive patterning?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes JBob, sometimes I wonder if anarchy would have been better. Because here in Norway you&#8217;ll mostly be punished if you want to implement positive patterns. But what would it help if people don&#8217;t have a clue about positive patterning?</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mackintosh</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/28/property-rights-and-public-accommodations/#comment-51290</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mackintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Aug 2010 15:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=3587#comment-51290</guid>
		<description>JBob - so you disagree with the ruling that allows black people to be accommodated where they want, and to travel in any bus?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JBob &#8211; so you disagree with the ruling that allows black people to be accommodated where they want, and to travel in any bus?</p>
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		<title>By: JBob</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/28/property-rights-and-public-accommodations/#comment-51237</link>
		<dc:creator>JBob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 17:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=3587#comment-51237</guid>
		<description>Øyvind, Bill was right, except that anarchy does not imply non cooperation. Anarchy, properly understood, means no &quot;enforced directions from the top.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Øyvind, Bill was right, except that anarchy does not imply non cooperation. Anarchy, properly understood, means no &#8220;enforced directions from the top.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Øyvind Holmstad</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/28/property-rights-and-public-accommodations/#comment-51127</link>
		<dc:creator>Øyvind Holmstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=3587#comment-51127</guid>
		<description>Property, property, property. We are soon 9 billion people upon this Earth, and the solution is more and more property? No, we need to move From Ownership to Relationship: http://eartheasy.com/blog/2010/03/from-ownership-to-relationship/

A better alternative is this: http://www.dianaleafechristian.org/creating.html

But unfortunately our western societies are so destroyed by individualism, sectorialism and parliamentarism, that creating something so nice is almost impossible here. See: http://www.permakultur-danmark.dk/?Artikler:Nordic_Pamphlets:DENGLUSAUism

Permaculture has NOTHING to do with capitalism or socialism; it has developed to a much higher level.

“Bill: No, anarchy would suggest you’re not cooperating. Permaculture is urging complete cooperation between each other and every other thing, animate and inanimate. You can’t cooperate by knocking something about or bossing it or forcing it to do things. You won’t get cooperation out of a hierarchical system. You get enforced directions from the top, and nothing I know of can run like that. I think the world would function extremely well with millions of little cooperative groups, all in relation to each other.”

See: http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC28/Mollison.htm

Permaculture has nothing to do with capitalism, because capitalism is pure competition, while Permaculture is pure cooperation.

Permaculture has nothing to do with socialism, because socialism is a hierarchical system with enforced directions from the top (the state).

Norway is a bastard country with the worst from both these systems; it is a TOTALITARIAN democracy with almost no positive patterns at all:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian_democracy

Norway is a country that has almost nothing to give in supporting a true rich life: http://permaculture.org.au/2008/08/19/developed/

This is why we must create A NEW KIND OF WORLD, a world that supports life, a world of Permaculture: http://www.natureoforder.com/library/a-new-kind-of-world.htm

The only thing that matters in life, the only thing that has true value, the only thing which can enrich our lives, is PATTERNS that set humans and the natural world in HARMONY with each other: http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/31/decoding-pattern/

All these economists, all these philosophers, all these ideologists who set up ridiculous theories that almost nobody can understand except themselves. Because in the whole world there is only ONE method that really matters, it is simple and states like this: 

Observe current systems of both human and non-human invention
+
Learn from their success and failures
+
Design systems that put humans and the natural world in harmony
+
Apply designs to current and new human infrastructure
=
http://www.reliableprosperity.net/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Property, property, property. We are soon 9 billion people upon this Earth, and the solution is more and more property? No, we need to move From Ownership to Relationship: <a href="http://eartheasy.com/blog/2010/03/from-ownership-to-relationship/" rel="nofollow">http://eartheasy.com/blog/2010/03/from-ownership-to-relationship/</a></p>
<p>A better alternative is this: <a href="http://www.dianaleafechristian.org/creating.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.dianaleafechristian.org/creating.html</a></p>
<p>But unfortunately our western societies are so destroyed by individualism, sectorialism and parliamentarism, that creating something so nice is almost impossible here. See: <a href="http://www.permakultur-danmark.dk/?Artikler:Nordic_Pamphlets:DENGLUSAUism" rel="nofollow">http://www.permakultur-danmark.dk/?Artikler:Nordic_Pamphlets:DENGLUSAUism</a></p>
<p>Permaculture has NOTHING to do with capitalism or socialism; it has developed to a much higher level.</p>
<p>“Bill: No, anarchy would suggest you’re not cooperating. Permaculture is urging complete cooperation between each other and every other thing, animate and inanimate. You can’t cooperate by knocking something about or bossing it or forcing it to do things. You won’t get cooperation out of a hierarchical system. You get enforced directions from the top, and nothing I know of can run like that. I think the world would function extremely well with millions of little cooperative groups, all in relation to each other.”</p>
<p>See: <a href="http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC28/Mollison.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC28/Mollison.htm</a></p>
<p>Permaculture has nothing to do with capitalism, because capitalism is pure competition, while Permaculture is pure cooperation.</p>
<p>Permaculture has nothing to do with socialism, because socialism is a hierarchical system with enforced directions from the top (the state).</p>
<p>Norway is a bastard country with the worst from both these systems; it is a TOTALITARIAN democracy with almost no positive patterns at all:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian_democracy" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian_democracy</a></p>
<p>Norway is a country that has almost nothing to give in supporting a true rich life: <a href="http://permaculture.org.au/2008/08/19/developed/" rel="nofollow">http://permaculture.org.au/2008/08/19/developed/</a></p>
<p>This is why we must create A NEW KIND OF WORLD, a world that supports life, a world of Permaculture: <a href="http://www.natureoforder.com/library/a-new-kind-of-world.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.natureoforder.com/library/a-new-kind-of-world.htm</a></p>
<p>The only thing that matters in life, the only thing that has true value, the only thing which can enrich our lives, is PATTERNS that set humans and the natural world in HARMONY with each other: <a href="http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/31/decoding-pattern/" rel="nofollow">http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/31/decoding-pattern/</a></p>
<p>All these economists, all these philosophers, all these ideologists who set up ridiculous theories that almost nobody can understand except themselves. Because in the whole world there is only ONE method that really matters, it is simple and states like this: </p>
<p>Observe current systems of both human and non-human invention<br />
+<br />
Learn from their success and failures<br />
+<br />
Design systems that put humans and the natural world in harmony<br />
+<br />
Apply designs to current and new human infrastructure<br />
=<br />
<a href="http://www.reliableprosperity.net/" rel="nofollow">http://www.reliableprosperity.net/</a></p>
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		<title>By: JBob</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/28/property-rights-and-public-accommodations/#comment-51105</link>
		<dc:creator>JBob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 08:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=3587#comment-51105</guid>
		<description>A seven page attack on &quot;libertarianism&quot; on a permaculture website. Interesting. 

Using David Boaz as the spokesperson for libertarianism is bad enough, but I had to stop reading when the straw man got as bad as &quot;Is there an inviolable right to establish a hog farm on one’s property in a residential area? Such a “right” degrades the property values of one’s neighbors.&quot;

Anyone remotely familiar with libertarian property rights theory would know that you clearly don&#039;t have a right to fill your neighbor&#039;s air with hog shit vapors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A seven page attack on &#8220;libertarianism&#8221; on a permaculture website. Interesting. </p>
<p>Using David Boaz as the spokesperson for libertarianism is bad enough, but I had to stop reading when the straw man got as bad as &#8220;Is there an inviolable right to establish a hog farm on one’s property in a residential area? Such a “right” degrades the property values of one’s neighbors.&#8221;</p>
<p>Anyone remotely familiar with libertarian property rights theory would know that you clearly don&#8217;t have a right to fill your neighbor&#8217;s air with hog shit vapors.</p>
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		<title>By: Johan</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/28/property-rights-and-public-accommodations/#comment-51091</link>
		<dc:creator>Johan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 03:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=3587#comment-51091</guid>
		<description>I believe in absolute moral precepts, and what I mean by absolute is that it applies to everyone universally without exception. However, there could be relative order between moral precepts. For example, in the Bible, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20&amp;version=KJV&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ten Commandments&lt;/a&gt; &quot;Thou shalt not kill&quot; comes before &quot;Thou shalt not steal&quot; and &quot;Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour&quot;. 

That implies, for example, that the right to live takes precedence to property right in the event of conflict. So yes, save the drowning child in your neighbour&#039;s property. Take the coin from the vending machine and make the life saving phone call. Lie to the mafia to save the victim.

But what about the guy who wants to start a hog farm in his block of land in the residential area? Let&#039;s see how we can resolve that. If we forbid him from opening the hog farm, we are violating his property right. If we don&#039;t, then we violate the right of the residents to... high property price. Wait a minute. Is high property price a moral right? Hmm... is there a better argument? 

Yes there is! When a hog farm is established and creates noise and smell pollution, the residents can sue the hog farm on the basis of infringement of their property right. The houses are there first before the farm, they have the right to the pre-existing level of noise and smell. The additional noise and smell from the farm technically trespasses the residents property and they have every legal right to sue the farm. There is no need for restriction on hog farm. What needs to be done is to enforce property right. 

On the other hand, if I were to build a house in established farm area, I couldn&#039;t sue the farm for noise and smell because I would have accepted that those are the prevailing condition on that block of land I bought. The farms with the smell and noise were there first. 

If I found out my neighbour is making explosives, I could sue them for the threat to my life and my property. Having law against making explosives in one&#039;s home doesn&#039;t stop them in the first place. Why have additional restrictive laws that enroach property right while what needs to be done is to enforce property right in the first place? Certainly more regulations mean more job and income for the state.

Going back to the public accommodation act, when you read the complete &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964/Title_II&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;act&lt;/a&gt;, you will note a few things:
1. it is quite broad, covering more than just public accommodation but also public entertainment such as theatre, concert halls, etc. 
2. there is an exception for private clubs (section (e) of the Title). There is no stopping anyone from having their motel or restaurant a private club open to members only, thus carrying on with the discriminatory practices. 

The question remain, how would this law be enforced? What&#039;s stopping the vendor from claiming that all rooms are already booked and all tables are reserved? 

What the black really needed, having just gained their right to live, was their right to property. They needed to be able to own and rent properties, and own and operate businesses. I believe the improvement in black people lifes were due to them gaining access to property and businesses and the ability to compete with white people on equal grounds, instead of just having access to public places.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe in absolute moral precepts, and what I mean by absolute is that it applies to everyone universally without exception. However, there could be relative order between moral precepts. For example, in the Bible, the <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20&amp;version=KJV" rel="nofollow">Ten Commandments</a> &#8220;Thou shalt not kill&#8221; comes before &#8220;Thou shalt not steal&#8221; and &#8220;Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour&#8221;. </p>
<p>That implies, for example, that the right to live takes precedence to property right in the event of conflict. So yes, save the drowning child in your neighbour&#8217;s property. Take the coin from the vending machine and make the life saving phone call. Lie to the mafia to save the victim.</p>
<p>But what about the guy who wants to start a hog farm in his block of land in the residential area? Let&#8217;s see how we can resolve that. If we forbid him from opening the hog farm, we are violating his property right. If we don&#8217;t, then we violate the right of the residents to&#8230; high property price. Wait a minute. Is high property price a moral right? Hmm&#8230; is there a better argument? </p>
<p>Yes there is! When a hog farm is established and creates noise and smell pollution, the residents can sue the hog farm on the basis of infringement of their property right. The houses are there first before the farm, they have the right to the pre-existing level of noise and smell. The additional noise and smell from the farm technically trespasses the residents property and they have every legal right to sue the farm. There is no need for restriction on hog farm. What needs to be done is to enforce property right. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if I were to build a house in established farm area, I couldn&#8217;t sue the farm for noise and smell because I would have accepted that those are the prevailing condition on that block of land I bought. The farms with the smell and noise were there first. </p>
<p>If I found out my neighbour is making explosives, I could sue them for the threat to my life and my property. Having law against making explosives in one&#8217;s home doesn&#8217;t stop them in the first place. Why have additional restrictive laws that enroach property right while what needs to be done is to enforce property right in the first place? Certainly more regulations mean more job and income for the state.</p>
<p>Going back to the public accommodation act, when you read the complete <a href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964/Title_II" rel="nofollow">act</a>, you will note a few things:<br />
1. it is quite broad, covering more than just public accommodation but also public entertainment such as theatre, concert halls, etc.<br />
2. there is an exception for private clubs (section (e) of the Title). There is no stopping anyone from having their motel or restaurant a private club open to members only, thus carrying on with the discriminatory practices. </p>
<p>The question remain, how would this law be enforced? What&#8217;s stopping the vendor from claiming that all rooms are already booked and all tables are reserved? </p>
<p>What the black really needed, having just gained their right to live, was their right to property. They needed to be able to own and rent properties, and own and operate businesses. I believe the improvement in black people lifes were due to them gaining access to property and businesses and the ability to compete with white people on equal grounds, instead of just having access to public places.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Reimers</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/28/property-rights-and-public-accommodations/#comment-50884</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Reimers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=3587#comment-50884</guid>
		<description>Thank you for explaining the history not only as &quot;what happened.&quot;  but why.  :-)

While I still value the Self-Responsibility I see among the Libertarians I know, thank you for helping me to understand why it doesn&#039;t quite work...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for explaining the history not only as &#8220;what happened.&#8221;  but why.  <img src='http://permaculture.org.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>While I still value the Self-Responsibility I see among the Libertarians I know, thank you for helping me to understand why it doesn&#8217;t quite work&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mackintosh</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/28/property-rights-and-public-accommodations/#comment-50861</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mackintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=3587#comment-50861</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m doing my best to keep your reading frenzy satiated Øyvind ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m doing my best to keep your reading frenzy satiated Øyvind <img src='http://permaculture.org.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Øyvind Holmstad</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/07/28/property-rights-and-public-accommodations/#comment-50860</link>
		<dc:creator>Øyvind Holmstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=3587#comment-50860</guid>
		<description>Please publish more articles from this guy at this wonderful blog, and thank you for letting me know about him!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please publish more articles from this guy at this wonderful blog, and thank you for letting me know about him!</p>
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