@ Craig:

“The medium is the message.”

We have power right in our hands, right at our fingertips.

The video footage CATEGORICALLY does NOT represent the fundamental values of permaculture:-

EARTH CARE – NOPE
PEOPLE CARE – NOPE
FARE SHARE – NOPE

So, until all of us (somehow or other) successfully transform our lives and behavior to a more sustainably friendly future, we all actually shoulder a portion of the blame.

Even the feudal system never really existed here in Norway, because we’re a marginal country on the edge of the world, I’m afraid Craig is right that a new hypermodern technological feudalistic system will this time stretch its tentacles even to the most remote fjords of my country.

The small farmer and fisherman of old ages living high up in the fjords slopes, walking up the steep sides with ladders he could withdraw when he climbed up the mountain side, were mostly a free man while most Europeans were slaves of feudal lords.

But next time the feudal lords stretch out their parasitic tentacles over the world, their poison will burn everyone and leave nobody with the flavor of freedom.

So what we need to see now is the roots of Permaculture to stretch out to cover the whole surface of the world, nourishing all people to make them strong and independent. Only this way they’ll be strong enough to withstand the crisis that are approaching!

I also lament the subsidising of industry destruction through our own taxpaying dollars, and then bailing them out as a reward, just as I bewail the subsidising of wars of aggression. Yes, we need to remove this subsidising.

Yes, peak oil will transform industrial society in profound ways.

Where I disagree is that peak oil and the removal of subsidies and government will ‘cut monopolies off at the knees’. You’re forgetting that there were monopolies, and feudal lords, well before there were government subsidies and supports for them. In fact, it was because these monopolies and corporate feudalists were as powerful as they were that they managed to transform government into an agency working on their behalf. Cronyism is a result of monopolisation, not the other way around (although they then, subsequently feed into each other, of course).

From what I’ve seen, peak oil and economic collapse is doing the opposite of what you’re predicting. Instead of a breakup of monopolisation, we’re seeing increasing centralisation. The supposed benefits of economies of scale were seen in 2008 (when oil prices tripled in a year) to cause struggling airlines to either merge or sell out to the bigger competition. As the trend continues, there will soon be little to no competition. Peak oil and economic collapse may weaken these big guys, but it’s all relative – they’ll still be bigger and stronger than anyone else.

Feudalism grew out of a fairly level playing field. Remove government now – in a situation where the playing field is anything but level – will not bring equality, but just leave the biggest players with free reign. Their business activities will certainly need to adapt to a situation of declining resources, but they will still maintain their position of power in the marketplace.

I see all kinds of disasters occurring from just removing all regulation and government. One example – take BigBiotech. It is deregulation that gave Monsanto the ability to fast-track their attempt to take control of the world’s food supply (see The World According to Monsanto to see footage of Bush Senior saying they’re in the deregulation business), and biologically contaminate the world’s natural systems as a result.

Although there seems to be increasing leak-points, Europe is largely a no-go zone for GMOs, due to bans on it that reflect the will of the majority of the people. Remove those restrictions, and GMOs will flood Europe and the rest of the world, with widespread, alarming consequences that can occur even before peak oil has had a chance to impact their business at all.

My suggestion is to not completely remove government, and leave business interests to do whatever they want, but rather to see a significant increase in citizen participation in government – with that citizenry made increasingly lucid through education in both the realities of what we’re facing, and recognising the potential found in actual, holistic solutions.

To be honest, when you say ‘let them fail’, I don’t think you’ve really thought this through. I don’t think you know what you’re saying. Our system, as bad as it is, still gives a life to billions of people. Our horribly centralised agricultural systems, for example, still give life (even if not well nourished) to billions – if they fail, many of us will die. There is no doubt that they will fail eventually – it’s just a matter of time, due to energy constraints as well as soil/water/phosphate depletion issues, etc. – but if we don’t find a way to transition this failure, then we’re in serious trouble. No man is an island here.

My bet is that a more humane transitioning process can occur with people learning to take responsibility for their own future and ensuring they’re heard and represented by a government that works by the people, for the people, rather than just letting private interests run roughshod over all.

Sorry if I seemed to be making a ’strawman’ of capitalism. Yes, the freedom aspects of ‘capitalism’ are worthy of merit. I don’t dispute that. I’m all for freedom. Where we differ is that you seem to think that total freedom will be the best path, because things will just ‘work themselves out’. I am confident that history will repeat, as it ever has – that pride and selfishness and ambition will ensure a modern, high-tech feudalism would take control even more than it does today.

The reality is – governments now largely represent industry, and industry is becoming government. I believe what you’re pushing for is to remove the last vestiges of defense against democracy. We need to take back control of government, from industry – not just hand control over to them on a platter.

One more example – in a post that may interest you also. Scroll down to the section – “Getting to the heart of the matter: Corporate greed is a CEO’s legal obligation“. This talks about, as the sub-title suggests, the fact that corporate captains are legally obliged to look out for their own interests, and pretty much nothing else. Removing government doesn’t solve this problem, particularly as corporations have pretty much written their own laws. Please take a look at that section, and the remainder of the article.

One thing with taking control back over government – we don’t even need a majority of the people on board to do so, we just need a sensible, but active minority to begin to make substantial change. If there are 1000 people in a voting district, if most of them watch Baywatch on Wednesday nights, while a sensible few decide instead of go along to the community hall and push for necessary change, these sensible few will make their voices heard over the apathetic, do-nothing couch potatoes.

http://permaculture.org.au/2010/04/09/permaculture-groups-and-government-influence

What you seem to be pushing for, at a political level, is to give control back to the ‘invisible hand’, which has no morals or accountability – and people can continue to watch Baywatch on Wednesday night, and continue to leave their futures to time, chance, and (I say) the whim of industrial oligarchys. It’s a ‘comfortable’ message that fits with the kind of society industry has bred over the last century, but it’s not a message that will bring solutions.

A final comment – as I just suggested to JBob, you are welcome to write up a post delineating your ideas on strategies for an alternative global nation. I, and I’m sure our readers, would be interested to hear your opinion on how to transition. I’d personally and particularly like to understand how you see it playing out after all government has been removed. Think it through well (as you’re facing a discerning readership here!), and send it through! editor (at) permaculture.org.au

@Øyvind Holmstad:

Ironic indeed that our own lifestyle is what may/is kill/killing us.

I’m working on it. I’ll give you another clue:
http://macintyremedia.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/the-decentralized-tribe/
(use a different soundtrack if it suits

Another option is to answer your own questions, using the internet, the world’s greatest library.

If or when a permaculture society like the one envisioned by Mollison/Holmgren becomes reality, I wonder how some people like the “team players” who thrived in the capitalisticish (whatever you want to call it) systems will fare.

Maybe they will shrivel.

http://www.livingneighborhoods.org/ht-0/morphogenesis-two.htm

This is permaculture thinking! It’s time for Permaculture and CENTER FOR ENVIRONMENTAL STRUCTURE to join forces! Because I want to live in this kind of world:

http://www.natureoforder.com/library/a-new-kind-of-world.htm