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	<title>Comments on: A Silent Forest &#8211; a Look at Genetically Engineered Trees</title>
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		<title>By: Øyvind Holmstad</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/04/09/a-silent-forest-a-look-at-genetically-engineered-trees/#comment-46095</link>
		<dc:creator>Øyvind Holmstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 07:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2865#comment-46095</guid>
		<description>The small uplifted numbers didn&#039;t appear here, the correct is 2 in 15 mistakes, or 10 in 15 mistakes = a thousand trillion mistakes. 

Also I think GMO is an attac on the value of its own that each specia has, even trees, according to Deep Ecology: http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC22/Zimmrman.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The small uplifted numbers didn&#8217;t appear here, the correct is 2 in 15 mistakes, or 10 in 15 mistakes = a thousand trillion mistakes. </p>
<p>Also I think GMO is an attac on the value of its own that each specia has, even trees, according to Deep Ecology: <a href="http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC22/Zimmrman.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC22/Zimmrman.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Øyvind Holmstad</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/04/09/a-silent-forest-a-look-at-genetically-engineered-trees/#comment-46078</link>
		<dc:creator>Øyvind Holmstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2865#comment-46078</guid>
		<description>&quot;And the fundamental answer is, that there is a fundamental law about the creation of complexity, which is visible and obvious to everyone – yet this law is, to all intents and purposes, ignored in 99 % of the daily fabrication process of society. The law states simply as this: ALL the well-ordered complex systems we know in the world, all those anyway that we review as highly successful, are GENERATED structures, not fabricated structures.&quot;

From &quot;The Process of Creating Life&quot; by Christopher Alexander, page 180.

After using the whole 20th century destroying the beautiful generated forests of our world, replacing them with fabricated forests, it is probably a natural consequense that we in the 21th century follow up with also fabricating the tree itself!

But how many mistakes can be done when we fabricate a tree, the genoma, the nature itself? I will again make a quota from the architect, matematichan and philosopher Christopher Alexander:

&quot;If an embryo were shaped by fabrication, and not generated, the number of mistakes would be unbelievably large.

The human embryo is created by 50 doubling of cells. Starting with a single cell (the fertilized egg), after 50 doublings, the embryo has 250 cells. During this doubling process that occurs 50 times, each cell has the opportunity to adapt itself, and to remove possible mistakes by position, adaption, pushing and pulling. The total number of opportunities for correction, then, in the growing embryo, is (1+2+22+23+….250) = 251. Reversing the argument, we may express this by saying that the assembly of embryo cells, if not given a chanche for adaption and instead made by design and fabrication, would typically have 251 mistakes – a truly enormous number, roughly 1015, or a thousand trillion mistakes. That is what would happen if an embryo were designed and built, not generated. If an embryo were built from a blueprint of a design, not generated by an adaptive process, there would inevitably be one thousand trillion mistakes. Because of its history as a generated structure, there are virtually none.&quot;

From &quot;The Process of Creating Life&quot; by Christopher Alexander, page 187-188.

I&#039;m afraid the introduction of GMO is a big mistake that will fabricate thousands upon thousands of trillions of mistakes in our world!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And the fundamental answer is, that there is a fundamental law about the creation of complexity, which is visible and obvious to everyone – yet this law is, to all intents and purposes, ignored in 99 % of the daily fabrication process of society. The law states simply as this: ALL the well-ordered complex systems we know in the world, all those anyway that we review as highly successful, are GENERATED structures, not fabricated structures.&#8221;</p>
<p>From &#8220;The Process of Creating Life&#8221; by Christopher Alexander, page 180.</p>
<p>After using the whole 20th century destroying the beautiful generated forests of our world, replacing them with fabricated forests, it is probably a natural consequense that we in the 21th century follow up with also fabricating the tree itself!</p>
<p>But how many mistakes can be done when we fabricate a tree, the genoma, the nature itself? I will again make a quota from the architect, matematichan and philosopher Christopher Alexander:</p>
<p>&#8220;If an embryo were shaped by fabrication, and not generated, the number of mistakes would be unbelievably large.</p>
<p>The human embryo is created by 50 doubling of cells. Starting with a single cell (the fertilized egg), after 50 doublings, the embryo has 250 cells. During this doubling process that occurs 50 times, each cell has the opportunity to adapt itself, and to remove possible mistakes by position, adaption, pushing and pulling. The total number of opportunities for correction, then, in the growing embryo, is (1+2+22+23+….250) = 251. Reversing the argument, we may express this by saying that the assembly of embryo cells, if not given a chanche for adaption and instead made by design and fabrication, would typically have 251 mistakes – a truly enormous number, roughly 1015, or a thousand trillion mistakes. That is what would happen if an embryo were designed and built, not generated. If an embryo were built from a blueprint of a design, not generated by an adaptive process, there would inevitably be one thousand trillion mistakes. Because of its history as a generated structure, there are virtually none.&#8221;</p>
<p>From &#8220;The Process of Creating Life&#8221; by Christopher Alexander, page 187-188.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid the introduction of GMO is a big mistake that will fabricate thousands upon thousands of trillions of mistakes in our world!</p>
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		<title>By: Arian I.</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/04/09/a-silent-forest-a-look-at-genetically-engineered-trees/#comment-46034</link>
		<dc:creator>Arian I.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2865#comment-46034</guid>
		<description>Why do the extremely intelligent scientists in question promote GMOs? Well, let&#039;s just say that intelligence does not necessarily equal wisdom. Intelligence refers to a cognitive process, while wisdom refers to a psychological/moral one.

As well, where did we ever come up with the thought that piece of genetic material can be as interchangeable as pieces of an automobile or an airplane?

Dr. Suzuki&#039;s description of genomic processes reminds me a lot of a game called Weichi. All the pieces on either side, white or black, look the same, but their properties vary greatly according to their positions relative to other pieces on the board - and to the regions of the board itself. (I always watched Dr. Suzuki&#039;s programs when I was a kid ^^)

My personal guess is that such scientists, in spite of their great learning and intelligence, have this ingrained sense of inadequacy, which leads them to higher and higher levels of achievement in pursuit of recognition and validation. Even if it means supporting and sponsoring something so dangerous as GMOs, as long as the accolades are given, it&#039;s worth it. Though, eventually some of them will recognize the folly of their ways and do the right thing.

Here is Note No. 41 from &quot;The Means to Win&quot;, by William Bodri.

&quot;An extreme to be seen in Capitalism is that it produces a wealthy privileged class which turns about and rejects the source of its own wealth to seek a socialist order. Thus it is that when the timing is appropiate, every movement produces a reaction in the opposite direction.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do the extremely intelligent scientists in question promote GMOs? Well, let&#8217;s just say that intelligence does not necessarily equal wisdom. Intelligence refers to a cognitive process, while wisdom refers to a psychological/moral one.</p>
<p>As well, where did we ever come up with the thought that piece of genetic material can be as interchangeable as pieces of an automobile or an airplane?</p>
<p>Dr. Suzuki&#8217;s description of genomic processes reminds me a lot of a game called Weichi. All the pieces on either side, white or black, look the same, but their properties vary greatly according to their positions relative to other pieces on the board &#8211; and to the regions of the board itself. (I always watched Dr. Suzuki&#8217;s programs when I was a kid ^^)</p>
<p>My personal guess is that such scientists, in spite of their great learning and intelligence, have this ingrained sense of inadequacy, which leads them to higher and higher levels of achievement in pursuit of recognition and validation. Even if it means supporting and sponsoring something so dangerous as GMOs, as long as the accolades are given, it&#8217;s worth it. Though, eventually some of them will recognize the folly of their ways and do the right thing.</p>
<p>Here is Note No. 41 from &#8220;The Means to Win&#8221;, by William Bodri.</p>
<p>&#8220;An extreme to be seen in Capitalism is that it produces a wealthy privileged class which turns about and rejects the source of its own wealth to seek a socialist order. Thus it is that when the timing is appropiate, every movement produces a reaction in the opposite direction.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: DamnedIfWeDo</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/04/09/a-silent-forest-a-look-at-genetically-engineered-trees/#comment-46015</link>
		<dc:creator>DamnedIfWeDo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 01:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2865#comment-46015</guid>
		<description>Looks like the best way to combat this is (1) Don&#039;t buy their products (2) Plant food and timber trees least likely to be cross pollinated (3) Any means necessary because it&#039;s do or die at this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like the best way to combat this is (1) Don&#8217;t buy their products (2) Plant food and timber trees least likely to be cross pollinated (3) Any means necessary because it&#8217;s do or die at this point.</p>
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		<title>By: Øyvind Holmstad</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/04/09/a-silent-forest-a-look-at-genetically-engineered-trees/#comment-45938</link>
		<dc:creator>Øyvind Holmstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 20:33:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2865#comment-45938</guid>
		<description>How can it be that all these extremely intelligent people promote GMO? Of course, partly it is greed. But I think Christopher Alexander has the best understanding about why the &quot;modern&quot; homo sapiens behave like this, it is because the ORDER of the world is BROKEN. Permaculture is all about restoring the nature of order, a WORLD of ORDER. To understand why the order of our world became broken, read the fifth comment on the bottom of this article: http://permaculture.org.au/2010/02/04/letters-from-sri-lanka-sarvodaya-builds-sri-lankas-first-eco-village/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can it be that all these extremely intelligent people promote GMO? Of course, partly it is greed. But I think Christopher Alexander has the best understanding about why the &#8220;modern&#8221; homo sapiens behave like this, it is because the ORDER of the world is BROKEN. Permaculture is all about restoring the nature of order, a WORLD of ORDER. To understand why the order of our world became broken, read the fifth comment on the bottom of this article: <a href="http://permaculture.org.au/2010/02/04/letters-from-sri-lanka-sarvodaya-builds-sri-lankas-first-eco-village/" rel="nofollow">http://permaculture.org.au/2010/02/04/letters-from-sri-lanka-sarvodaya-builds-sri-lankas-first-eco-village/</a></p>
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