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	<title>Comments on: Letters from Slovakia &#8211; Kings, Conquerors, Capitalism and Resilience Lost</title>
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	<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/</link>
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		<title>By: PraetoR</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/#comment-44890</link>
		<dc:creator>PraetoR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2650#comment-44890</guid>
		<description>If you take it from perspective of post-communism, than talking about Eastern Europe is OK, but since the article tries to go deeper into history... It is impossible to put Slovakia as example of Eastern Europe, there are too many differencies, although in early 1990&#039;s everything might have been painted in the same shades of grey.

For example only Czechoslovakia. The lands of nowadays Czech republic hosted 70% of industry of Austro-Hungarian empire, when it collapsed. And before Habsburg oppression there was a strong middle class of wealthy farmers, which Habsburgs destroyd in favour of feudal german aristocracy (also for religious reasons - 95% people in Czech lands were protestant when catholic house of Habsurgs took power, by the end of their rule there were almost no protestants left). This leads also to another distinction - while in the Czech Republic there are 60-70% atheists in population, you take a few hours drive north to Poland and you find a country, where it is a social suicide to say there &#039;might&#039; be no god.

Then Slovakia, which was agricultural country, but in times of socialism (remeber, there was communist rule, but never communism) the colectivization of farms was (as same as in CZ) total, while in neighbouring Poland or Hungary the small farmers still owned and worked their lands. This lead to the fact, that in Czechoslovakia the farmers didn&#039;t profit from production directly - they got salary as factory workers. And after the revolution, as the land was given back, the 2 generations gap is simply too much. The young people - as me - have no connection to the life of small farmers, which you can see in big numbers in i.e. Slovenia or Poland still today (mostly people have normal jobs and after that they take care of their farms).

Bragging about young people running abroad... Well they would stay if they saw ANY future at the place where they are. They run away mostly from Poland and Slovakia (interestingly also to the Czech republic), but they don&#039;t do it because they seek a golden cattle in the world, but because simply there is nothing to do at their places of origin. The article describes the man who had 11 siblings. This truly was the case in last one and half milenia at the area, but the parents always had only so much to pass to their children. In last 200 years it was common that younger siblings, who wouldn&#039;t inherit family property, just went off into the great wide world. Some 200 years ago it was to more industrialised areas, i.e. czech Silesia, 150 years ago to America... and than again in socialism to feed the industry&#039;s apetite for workers. In socialism it was too hard to leave the country, and yet tens of thousands managed (mostly after communist revolution of &#039;48 and ruskies invasion of &#039;68). The wave of young people looking for a better place than the parents&#039; farm is nothing new in the area.

And with railway network 2nd densiest in Europe (Czech republic) fed by nuclear electricity, even the local Tesco superstore needs no worries, that the product wouldn&#039;t get to it, should the lorries run out of diesel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you take it from perspective of post-communism, than talking about Eastern Europe is OK, but since the article tries to go deeper into history&#8230; It is impossible to put Slovakia as example of Eastern Europe, there are too many differencies, although in early 1990&#8217;s everything might have been painted in the same shades of grey.</p>
<p>For example only Czechoslovakia. The lands of nowadays Czech republic hosted 70% of industry of Austro-Hungarian empire, when it collapsed. And before Habsburg oppression there was a strong middle class of wealthy farmers, which Habsburgs destroyd in favour of feudal german aristocracy (also for religious reasons &#8211; 95% people in Czech lands were protestant when catholic house of Habsurgs took power, by the end of their rule there were almost no protestants left). This leads also to another distinction &#8211; while in the Czech Republic there are 60-70% atheists in population, you take a few hours drive north to Poland and you find a country, where it is a social suicide to say there &#8216;might&#8217; be no god.</p>
<p>Then Slovakia, which was agricultural country, but in times of socialism (remeber, there was communist rule, but never communism) the colectivization of farms was (as same as in CZ) total, while in neighbouring Poland or Hungary the small farmers still owned and worked their lands. This lead to the fact, that in Czechoslovakia the farmers didn&#8217;t profit from production directly &#8211; they got salary as factory workers. And after the revolution, as the land was given back, the 2 generations gap is simply too much. The young people &#8211; as me &#8211; have no connection to the life of small farmers, which you can see in big numbers in i.e. Slovenia or Poland still today (mostly people have normal jobs and after that they take care of their farms).</p>
<p>Bragging about young people running abroad&#8230; Well they would stay if they saw ANY future at the place where they are. They run away mostly from Poland and Slovakia (interestingly also to the Czech republic), but they don&#8217;t do it because they seek a golden cattle in the world, but because simply there is nothing to do at their places of origin. The article describes the man who had 11 siblings. This truly was the case in last one and half milenia at the area, but the parents always had only so much to pass to their children. In last 200 years it was common that younger siblings, who wouldn&#8217;t inherit family property, just went off into the great wide world. Some 200 years ago it was to more industrialised areas, i.e. czech Silesia, 150 years ago to America&#8230; and than again in socialism to feed the industry&#8217;s apetite for workers. In socialism it was too hard to leave the country, and yet tens of thousands managed (mostly after communist revolution of &#8216;48 and ruskies invasion of &#8216;68). The wave of young people looking for a better place than the parents&#8217; farm is nothing new in the area.</p>
<p>And with railway network 2nd densiest in Europe (Czech republic) fed by nuclear electricity, even the local Tesco superstore needs no worries, that the product wouldn&#8217;t get to it, should the lorries run out of diesel.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mackintosh</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/#comment-44885</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mackintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2650#comment-44885</guid>
		<description>Thanks Carolyn. Re the gully, I&#039;m not sure, but looks to me to be a channel formed by seasonal water flow (snow melt, etc.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Carolyn. Re the gully, I&#8217;m not sure, but looks to me to be a channel formed by seasonal water flow (snow melt, etc.).</p>
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		<title>By: Carolyn Payne</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/#comment-44884</link>
		<dc:creator>Carolyn Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2650#comment-44884</guid>
		<description>I love this story Craig, it touches on so many subjects, it does give me hope that some models of sustainability still exist out there, at least in part. I realy like Stan, the hunter with his Remington and stuffed heads, a skilled man, no doubt about it. In our current unsustainable and wasteful lifestyles I think we really overlook the value of hunting. A perfectly placed bullet into a feral or overabundant population of animals is a good thing. Thanks for sharing him with us. Another thing that took my interest was the photo with the Tatry mountains in the background, there appears to be a big gully in the centre right of the picture with houses perched on the edge. Was this active erosion or some other geological feature?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this story Craig, it touches on so many subjects, it does give me hope that some models of sustainability still exist out there, at least in part. I realy like Stan, the hunter with his Remington and stuffed heads, a skilled man, no doubt about it. In our current unsustainable and wasteful lifestyles I think we really overlook the value of hunting. A perfectly placed bullet into a feral or overabundant population of animals is a good thing. Thanks for sharing him with us. Another thing that took my interest was the photo with the Tatry mountains in the background, there appears to be a big gully in the centre right of the picture with houses perched on the edge. Was this active erosion or some other geological feature?</p>
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		<title>By: Øyvind Holmstad</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/#comment-44879</link>
		<dc:creator>Øyvind Holmstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2650#comment-44879</guid>
		<description>I were in Romania short time after the communism fell, and it was a really nice experiense, the life felt slow. After some years I went back for a short trip, and what I notised most were all the garbage floating along the roads. From people throwing away all the new wrapping from McDonalds, Coca Cola, and all kinds of fast food and chocolate and so on. Here in Norway the school children and sports clubs clean along all roads every spring, and in return they get an amount of money to go to a camping or a trip and so on. But in Romania I don&#039;t think they have anything like this, and the amount of garbage along the roads just heap up. For me looking all this garbage heaping up along the roads after the introduction of capitalism destroyed much of my joy for my second trip to Romania.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I were in Romania short time after the communism fell, and it was a really nice experiense, the life felt slow. After some years I went back for a short trip, and what I notised most were all the garbage floating along the roads. From people throwing away all the new wrapping from McDonalds, Coca Cola, and all kinds of fast food and chocolate and so on. Here in Norway the school children and sports clubs clean along all roads every spring, and in return they get an amount of money to go to a camping or a trip and so on. But in Romania I don&#8217;t think they have anything like this, and the amount of garbage along the roads just heap up. For me looking all this garbage heaping up along the roads after the introduction of capitalism destroyed much of my joy for my second trip to Romania.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mackintosh</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/#comment-44801</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mackintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2650#comment-44801</guid>
		<description>Hi Zed - I&#039;ve been to parts of the former Yugoslavia. Croatia, and Slovenia in particular. In fact, my visit to Croatia in &#039;93 was the first, and so far, the last time I had an automatic machine gun aimed at me. I&#039;ve visited a few times, and have seen the changes you speak of. 

The changes I write about above apply to a great many countries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Zed &#8211; I&#8217;ve been to parts of the former Yugoslavia. Croatia, and Slovenia in particular. In fact, my visit to Croatia in &#8216;93 was the first, and so far, the last time I had an automatic machine gun aimed at me. I&#8217;ve visited a few times, and have seen the changes you speak of. </p>
<p>The changes I write about above apply to a great many countries.</p>
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		<title>By: Zed Mc Jack</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/#comment-44755</link>
		<dc:creator>Zed Mc Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2650#comment-44755</guid>
		<description>You should see Serbia or some other ex Yugoslav&#039;s states and see what kind of &quot;prosperity&quot; has been brought upon us, especialy as Yugoslavia was much more like western country at the time of communism brakedown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should see Serbia or some other ex Yugoslav&#8217;s states and see what kind of &#8220;prosperity&#8221; has been brought upon us, especialy as Yugoslavia was much more like western country at the time of communism brakedown.</p>
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		<title>By: Wojciech Majda</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/#comment-44743</link>
		<dc:creator>Wojciech Majda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2650#comment-44743</guid>
		<description>@ Mark Angelini 

I can&#039;t say much about permaculture in Czech, but...

My name is Wojciech Majda, and I&#039;m founder of Polski Instytut Permakultury (Polish Permaculture Institute). Poland have a border with Czech and Slovakia Republic from north.

When I&#039;ve started blogging about permaculture in Poland almost no one knew what did it mean.  For example word &quot;permakultura&quot; (permaculture in Polish) was being typed 1300 times a month. After some time (6 months) now it&#039;s being googled 2800 :)

I&#039;ve already designed few properties in Poland. Soon (within months) I will be buying a few acres property, so there will be proper demonstration site. 

And what&#039;s most important that I will be teaching on few permaculture courses, so message will be spread :)

@Craig Mackintosh

Yes, EU is ridiculous when it goes to rules if you get substidies, or not. 

For example you would not get it if you have weeds on your willow plantation. You have to upkeep your land &quot;in good agricultural practice&quot;. Weeds are definitly am agricultural sin. Probably lack of weeeds aka dynamic accumulators are the reason, why willow coppic last only 20-30 years (although willow normally lives around 100). 

We do have plenty of water (according to permaculture scale;), but according to &quot;normal&quot; agriculture we have too little. Soils in Poland are generally poor, because they are sandy and young.
After 1000 years of plowing there is not much organic matter left.

I couldn&#039;t agree more when it goes to housing. Rich people in my town - Gniezno,although we have 20-25% unemployment are building expensive houses (for example shape of roof is so complicated, that you could build normal house for the price of that roof).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Mark Angelini </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t say much about permaculture in Czech, but&#8230;</p>
<p>My name is Wojciech Majda, and I&#8217;m founder of Polski Instytut Permakultury (Polish Permaculture Institute). Poland have a border with Czech and Slovakia Republic from north.</p>
<p>When I&#8217;ve started blogging about permaculture in Poland almost no one knew what did it mean.  For example word &#8220;permakultura&#8221; (permaculture in Polish) was being typed 1300 times a month. After some time (6 months) now it&#8217;s being googled 2800 <img src='http://permaculture.org.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve already designed few properties in Poland. Soon (within months) I will be buying a few acres property, so there will be proper demonstration site. </p>
<p>And what&#8217;s most important that I will be teaching on few permaculture courses, so message will be spread <img src='http://permaculture.org.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>@Craig Mackintosh</p>
<p>Yes, EU is ridiculous when it goes to rules if you get substidies, or not. </p>
<p>For example you would not get it if you have weeds on your willow plantation. You have to upkeep your land &#8220;in good agricultural practice&#8221;. Weeds are definitly am agricultural sin. Probably lack of weeeds aka dynamic accumulators are the reason, why willow coppic last only 20-30 years (although willow normally lives around 100). </p>
<p>We do have plenty of water (according to permaculture scale;), but according to &#8220;normal&#8221; agriculture we have too little. Soils in Poland are generally poor, because they are sandy and young.<br />
After 1000 years of plowing there is not much organic matter left.</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree more when it goes to housing. Rich people in my town &#8211; Gniezno,although we have 20-25% unemployment are building expensive houses (for example shape of roof is so complicated, that you could build normal house for the price of that roof).</p>
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		<title>By: Marcin Gerwin</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/#comment-44742</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcin Gerwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2650#comment-44742</guid>
		<description>Excellent post, Craig, I think it captures well the changes that took place in Central Europe after the fall of the state-run socialism. People got on the dream of getting more stuff and catching up with the West. You can still hear politicians saying that we should attain the same material standard of living as in Western Europe as fast as possible. The national goal is to maximize the growth of GDP, build highways and generally earn more. However, as in Slovakia, there are still places in Poland where people live off the land. They are considered underdeveloped :) Here are some photos of the Beskid Niski region in Poland, which is still loosely populated and a bit &quot;wild&quot;:
http://www.adamlawnik.pl/zdjecia/magurski.php

It is a cultural norm here as well that you don&#039;t say &quot;Hi&quot; to a person you meet on the street, unless you know him or her personally. That&#039;s true for all places but the mountain trals, where you greet everyone you meet :)

P.S. The smoked cheese doesn&#039;t have to be very salty, it depends on the maker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post, Craig, I think it captures well the changes that took place in Central Europe after the fall of the state-run socialism. People got on the dream of getting more stuff and catching up with the West. You can still hear politicians saying that we should attain the same material standard of living as in Western Europe as fast as possible. The national goal is to maximize the growth of GDP, build highways and generally earn more. However, as in Slovakia, there are still places in Poland where people live off the land. They are considered underdeveloped <img src='http://permaculture.org.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Here are some photos of the Beskid Niski region in Poland, which is still loosely populated and a bit &#8220;wild&#8221;:<br />
<a href="http://www.adamlawnik.pl/zdjecia/magurski.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.adamlawnik.pl/zdjecia/magurski.php</a></p>
<p>It is a cultural norm here as well that you don&#8217;t say &#8220;Hi&#8221; to a person you meet on the street, unless you know him or her personally. That&#8217;s true for all places but the mountain trals, where you greet everyone you meet <img src='http://permaculture.org.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>P.S. The smoked cheese doesn&#8217;t have to be very salty, it depends on the maker.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mackintosh</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/#comment-44721</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mackintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2650#comment-44721</guid>
		<description>I only catch whispers/rumours of permaculture here. There&#039;s more going on in the Czech Republic. Having said that, there are hundreds of villages scattered about, living their own, traditional form of &#039;permaculture&#039; - a garden, a few chickens, a pig and cow or two, some fruit trees, lots of preserving of fruit, etc. etc. They&#039;ve been doing it for centuries, so it must work.... 

But, yes, alas, capitalism is destroying it fast. But, unlike in the west where we&#039;re often several generations removed from this kind of life, these people are only one or two generations removed. The young here still remember.... The faster the system crumbles, for these people, the better - in the sense that they&#039;ll start to turn around and retreat back to their past safe haven. At the moment they&#039;re almost entirely still chasing the western dream. The longer they are on this road the further they get from their traditional past. But, some are waking up. They just need some oil/food shocks to prompt them into action. It&#039;ll happen soon enough. Countries like this don&#039;t have their own oil resources, and their economy isn&#039;t strong enough to compete for oil with the likes of the US, China, UK, France, Germany, etc....

The wonderful thing I note about people here is they are so peace loving. All those kingdoms that came and went were more aggressive/military in nature. The Slavic peoples were largely agricultural and peaceful. But, with a weariness of having been conquered and passed from one empire to another, there&#039;s also a high degree of apathy. 

There&#039;s water a-plenty, and good soils (although the EU is eyeing and moving into this part of the world - wanting to turn central Europe into the bread basket of Europe, pushing large scale monocultures that could rape the land and water tables here). It&#039;s a cold climate in winter though, so all these people in high rises and new houses without root cellars, etc.... 

Some strategic planning is needed, like everywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only catch whispers/rumours of permaculture here. There&#8217;s more going on in the Czech Republic. Having said that, there are hundreds of villages scattered about, living their own, traditional form of &#8216;permaculture&#8217; &#8211; a garden, a few chickens, a pig and cow or two, some fruit trees, lots of preserving of fruit, etc. etc. They&#8217;ve been doing it for centuries, so it must work&#8230;. </p>
<p>But, yes, alas, capitalism is destroying it fast. But, unlike in the west where we&#8217;re often several generations removed from this kind of life, these people are only one or two generations removed. The young here still remember&#8230;. The faster the system crumbles, for these people, the better &#8211; in the sense that they&#8217;ll start to turn around and retreat back to their past safe haven. At the moment they&#8217;re almost entirely still chasing the western dream. The longer they are on this road the further they get from their traditional past. But, some are waking up. They just need some oil/food shocks to prompt them into action. It&#8217;ll happen soon enough. Countries like this don&#8217;t have their own oil resources, and their economy isn&#8217;t strong enough to compete for oil with the likes of the US, China, UK, France, Germany, etc&#8230;.</p>
<p>The wonderful thing I note about people here is they are so peace loving. All those kingdoms that came and went were more aggressive/military in nature. The Slavic peoples were largely agricultural and peaceful. But, with a weariness of having been conquered and passed from one empire to another, there&#8217;s also a high degree of apathy. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s water a-plenty, and good soils (although the EU is eyeing and moving into this part of the world &#8211; wanting to turn central Europe into the bread basket of Europe, pushing large scale monocultures that could rape the land and water tables here). It&#8217;s a cold climate in winter though, so all these people in high rises and new houses without root cellars, etc&#8230;. </p>
<p>Some strategic planning is needed, like everywhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Angelini</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/03/11/letters-from-slovakia-kings-conquerors-capitalism-and-resilience-lost/#comment-44720</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Angelini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2650#comment-44720</guid>
		<description>Learning about these countries fascinates me. Surely there are strands of this wisdom being preserved and improved upon? Any major permaculture work being done here that you&#039;re aware of? 

Wonderful photographs and writing, Craig.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Learning about these countries fascinates me. Surely there are strands of this wisdom being preserved and improved upon? Any major permaculture work being done here that you&#8217;re aware of? </p>
<p>Wonderful photographs and writing, Craig.</p>
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