Comments on: Should We Seek to Save Industrial Civilisation?

By: Thomas Fischbacher

Thomas Fischbacher — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:36:06 +0000

More dangerous than the perspective of a sudden catastrophic collapse of our civilization and a mass starvation scenario is the possibility that, as things break apart, some people then in power will make some really bad decisions, and people follow.

Whether this happens or not perhaps will to the largest degree depend on just one question: how fast will society learn that “power” is a meaningless illusion, an artificial construct that tries in vain to play the role that only “authority” can have. True authority is gained through exemplary behaviour, and he who has it can do the impossible when it comes to bringing out the best in people. Stop an intractable religiously motivated bloody civil war between millions of mostly illiterate villagers within just a few days? Most certainly, impossible. Well, Gandhi did it.

So, what do we learn from this? As long as you fear anything, as long as you fear death, you should consider it more important to first learn to properly understand and get those emotions sorted out than to “fight”. Note that “learning to get rid of the fear of death” is something very different from “giving up the will to live”. It is much more about learning to what degree fear of death is an illusion, and how to look through it. There were and are many people like Gandhi, only he was the most famous one in modern times. He was able to genuinely submit his very life to the only task that really matters – the non-violent search for truth. (Now that’s a pleonasm, for as soon as you apply violence, as soon as you forcefully try to impose your views, you are no longer searching for truth.)

I am fully aware that there is not much time. But I do not want “to save the world because of that”. What I want to achieve is a transition – as fast as possible – to a society not limited (as our present one) by a serious mis-understanding of the concept of “conflict”, but one that has learned that conflict is a symptom of a partial view on a complex issue, and must be resolved by a joint effort to investigate the true deeper nature of the problem. As fast as possible, because this makes sense, as fast as possible because it would mean to come to a saner society. The earlier we do that, the better. And in doing so, we may even manage to “save the world”.

By: Ed Straker

Ed Straker — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 07:37:07 +0000

“Learn about the Resource Based Economy Luke.”

Wonderful. Techno-communism? Or a carefully disguised ad for “Zeitgeist”.

By: Carolyn Payne

Carolyn Payne — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:05:00 +0000

Are these guys debating climate change,its concequences on our atmosphere and the effect on our food chain, hence population? The big problem is peak oil, peak everything. We need to focus on exposing peak fossil fuel issues. If we are on this site then surely we know that Permaculture is the remedy to peak oil concequences, ironically we will need Permaculture to help us survive climate change as well. Peak oil will bring everything to a hault, we will be living in a climate changed world without fossil fuel to feed, clothe and move us around, ironically a few billion people in the world already live like this. Lets use permaculture to gently bring the first world into equilibrium with the third world, I believe I can be a part of that. Carolyn Payne

By: S

Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:11:58 +0000

“Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree.” Martin Luther

By: Rob

Rob — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:12:14 +0000

This debate is interesting but I wonder what it actually translates to in terms of everyday concrete reality/action for the rest of us. Are they saying we should/should not support politicians that promise “change” or rather recoil into a corner we stake out for ourselves? There doesn’t seem to be much freedom in either “side” for folks like me on the ground, who do not get to write for some lofty English newspaper. I’ll keep practicing permaculture and strive for making positive, local changes.

By: Mike West

Mike West — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:23:41 +0000

We should; via education. Learn about the Resource Based Economy Luke.
http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy

By: risa b

risa b — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:10:43 +0000

There doesn’t seem to be much to choose between positions here — it sounds more like a difference in emotional responses. Paul as a bit less engaged than George, yet also working to “save” something, presumably at Dark Mountain.

Be sure to track Sharon Astyk’s take on this exchange. She believes there might be a whole range of stances between those taken here.

http://sharonastyk.com/2009/08/25/superheroes-to-the-rescue/

My own thoughts on inevitability tend to echo Paul’s — our small acre is our Dark Mountain, FWIW, yet I toil on like George, trying to show ways to cushion descent.