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	<title>Comments on: Can Permaculture Save the World???</title>
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	<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2008/10/02/can-permaculture-save-the-world/</link>
	<description>Changing the world one site at a time</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 03:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Eric Lim</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2008/10/02/can-permaculture-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-27614</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Lim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I've done an embedded PowerPoint Presentation on "Financial Tsunami vs. Financial Permaculture" that delibarated on the causes / effects / possible solutions to the current financial / economic crisis. More detail on blog www.sohominium.blogspot.com

By the way, I think the word "Permaculture" and "Permablitz" should be used both as "nounce" and "verb", if the world is to receive the full benefits of all the good efforts we are now contributing to the issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve done an embedded PowerPoint Presentation on &#8220;Financial Tsunami vs. Financial Permaculture&#8221; that delibarated on the causes / effects / possible solutions to the current financial / economic crisis. More detail on blog <a href="http://www.sohominium.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.sohominium.blogspot.com</a></p>
<p>By the way, I think the word &#8220;Permaculture&#8221; and &#8220;Permablitz&#8221; should be used both as &#8220;nounce&#8221; and &#8220;verb&#8221;, if the world is to receive the full benefits of all the good efforts we are now contributing to the issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Lucario</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2008/10/02/can-permaculture-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-27398</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucario</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=718#comment-27398</guid>
		<description>I have long appreciated Ted Trainer's didactic approach - his obsession with the the planetary crisis demonstrates an almost athletic psychological stamina. He works really damn hard to craft accessible books loaded with shocking data and analysis that cuts through the conventional academic mindset. I applaud his efforts and owe him heaps of big hugs I guess for being pretty darn  driven. 

I worry though, that he may be over-looking the limits of human psychological capital in western countries, where psycho-cultural poverty is driving the collective neuroses of affluence (the 'affluenza' victims/perpetrator complex). Most people are unfortunately too preoccupied with their own personal lives to invest time in broader social and planetary conciousness. Stressing them with overwhelming fear will certainly not bring out their best. And usually denial and other coping mechanisms kick in, even if as expected the entire global political economy does'nt even flinch (can I buy your carbon permits? etc). 

Furthermore, misanthropic zeal (which I have at times felt) to save Nature from wretched human nature fails to deal with the true crisis. Human decency and resposibility requires a humane approach, that empowers and informs people to make their own lives better, in their own way, in their own time. If respect matters, then people need to see other people living a great life by example, and if they choose, it can be theirs. Soft Power will make more change in better ways in the long run. It is pointless driving ourselves over the cliffs in herds of panic stricken hysteria. May the revolution continue in its gentle and inevitable transformation of human ways of life. 

Dreaming Dan, gosh you have a great understanding of things. I love humanity. And am proud to gush about it!! Hundreds of heroes, helping millions of heroes transforming billions of peoples lives - thats my vision of permaculture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have long appreciated Ted Trainer&#8217;s didactic approach - his obsession with the the planetary crisis demonstrates an almost athletic psychological stamina. He works really damn hard to craft accessible books loaded with shocking data and analysis that cuts through the conventional academic mindset. I applaud his efforts and owe him heaps of big hugs I guess for being pretty darn  driven. </p>
<p>I worry though, that he may be over-looking the limits of human psychological capital in western countries, where psycho-cultural poverty is driving the collective neuroses of affluence (the &#8216;affluenza&#8217; victims/perpetrator complex). Most people are unfortunately too preoccupied with their own personal lives to invest time in broader social and planetary conciousness. Stressing them with overwhelming fear will certainly not bring out their best. And usually denial and other coping mechanisms kick in, even if as expected the entire global political economy does&#8217;nt even flinch (can I buy your carbon permits? etc). </p>
<p>Furthermore, misanthropic zeal (which I have at times felt) to save Nature from wretched human nature fails to deal with the true crisis. Human decency and resposibility requires a humane approach, that empowers and informs people to make their own lives better, in their own way, in their own time. If respect matters, then people need to see other people living a great life by example, and if they choose, it can be theirs. Soft Power will make more change in better ways in the long run. It is pointless driving ourselves over the cliffs in herds of panic stricken hysteria. May the revolution continue in its gentle and inevitable transformation of human ways of life. </p>
<p>Dreaming Dan, gosh you have a great understanding of things. I love humanity. And am proud to gush about it!! Hundreds of heroes, helping millions of heroes transforming billions of peoples lives - thats my vision of permaculture.</p>
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		<title>By: Grifen</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2008/10/02/can-permaculture-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-27043</link>
		<dc:creator>Grifen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=718#comment-27043</guid>
		<description>Dreaming Dan, hows it going? Nice response! And thanks again Ted for expressing your powerful voice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dreaming Dan, hows it going? Nice response! And thanks again Ted for expressing your powerful voice.</p>
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		<title>By: Dreaming Dan</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2008/10/02/can-permaculture-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-26935</link>
		<dc:creator>Dreaming Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=718#comment-26935</guid>
		<description>I think Ted underestimates just how much of a challenge TRULY living to a Permaculture lifestyle is to the establishment. The key word being truly.

Permaculture as I see it is a design system that appeals because it makes so much sense. It takes the best of human abilities which are; keen observation, wonderful and (lets face it) awesome ability to manipulate the 3rd dimension and the idea of the 'future', and puts these under the guidance of the supreme teacher, Mother Nature.  What happens when a society is operating harmoniously under this system is what makes Permaculture so much more than a system, another idea to be thrown into the ugly -isms or systems of history. The systems, the principles, the rules just fall away because they are replaced with something greater. I'm not going to deliberately mystify what is essentially humans getting along with each other, intelligently living with the land and just enjoying life, but considering these things are supposedly Utopian, and Utopia is in reach, what could be more mystical? What could be more threatening to the status quo, one's idea of their self and the fat controllers 'out there'? If this constitures "All we do", then Ted has high expectations indeed!

Yet you don't have to wander into these realms of the future potentials of Permaculture to see why it is so challenging. If you live in a modern, rich country like Australia and have tried to retrofit your house or even build a new house upon permaculture principles you will soon come up against the stupidity of those we have placed in power and the laws which they wield so readily. Laws which we support by living under without question. You will know the mental and physical work, at least initially, required to really take on a responsible and intelligent 'Permie' life. And you will have felt the guilt that comes with knowing you could and should do more, guilt perpetuated by articles like Ted's. 

We know we can and must do more. We know the wonderful potentials of the smaller, cyclical and harmonious life. What I do not personally share with Ted is the fear that those coming into contact with this wondeful thing, which is really a reconstruction of the common sense and dreams of humanity throughout all time, are not changed by it. It is true that many will feel that they can have this cake and eat it too, on the couch in front of the T.v. probably, but the idea that you can and should change what is going on in your neighbour's head, aggressively even, is more dangerous than you realise. If Permaculture is going to truly break with the past, forge a new way of life for humanity, it will lead by example, by just working, in a world of systems that are so clearly haemoragging and failing all around us. Do not underestimate the danger of doing harm with the best intentions, nor the power to do so much good by educating and applying yourself to what you believe to be the best way forward. When humanity comes to agreement over the best way to live, when we look to Mother Nature and find ourselves walking the same path because it 'felt' right, not because we were ordered or persuaded to, then we will find a way of life truly worthy of the title 'Perma-culture.'

The common sense of Permaculture is not the sense of modern industrial society. The dreams of Permaculture are not the dreams of this society either. Or rather modern industrial society has no place for the dreams of the majority of the people on this planet. It would rather create it's own inflated, shallow, heady and addictive dreams from the glamorous echelons down, to distract the masses while 'getting on with business'. It has not the ability to imagine animals may dream, that the earth may dream or that there are so many other ways to seeing, doing, growing, making, loving, living. It just doesnt want to know. For those of us born and (to the extent that we are awake) caught in 'it', we ARE it. This is of course the basis of Ted's fear and logic in this article. The simple truth that we ARE IT, both the problem and the solution. 

I would like to finish by saying I understand totally, where Ted's coming from. Action is needed. People who truly know and believe in the potentials of Permaculture, who dare to imagine a Perma-culture need to step forward and speak. They will need skill, strength, courage, knowledge, humour and support. In short, heroes. The problem is not that there is a shortage of heroes, but you just aren't going to hear about them in the normal channels. You have to look. They are quietly getting on with it. They wisely know the pitfalls of modern mass media and as hard as it might be for us to accept, those who are going to be touched by Permaculture are perhaps meant to be. The implications for those who aren't are horrible. Tragic even. 


So let's spread it! People will do what they will with it. The beauty of it, the strength of it lies that unlike all other 'movements' it does not come from on high (euphemism for out of men's heads) but from down low. Its foundation is the most solid of all, the earth, and that for me is a great source of comfort and hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Ted underestimates just how much of a challenge TRULY living to a Permaculture lifestyle is to the establishment. The key word being truly.</p>
<p>Permaculture as I see it is a design system that appeals because it makes so much sense. It takes the best of human abilities which are; keen observation, wonderful and (lets face it) awesome ability to manipulate the 3rd dimension and the idea of the &#8216;future&#8217;, and puts these under the guidance of the supreme teacher, Mother Nature.  What happens when a society is operating harmoniously under this system is what makes Permaculture so much more than a system, another idea to be thrown into the ugly -isms or systems of history. The systems, the principles, the rules just fall away because they are replaced with something greater. I&#8217;m not going to deliberately mystify what is essentially humans getting along with each other, intelligently living with the land and just enjoying life, but considering these things are supposedly Utopian, and Utopia is in reach, what could be more mystical? What could be more threatening to the status quo, one&#8217;s idea of their self and the fat controllers &#8216;out there&#8217;? If this constitures &#8220;All we do&#8221;, then Ted has high expectations indeed!</p>
<p>Yet you don&#8217;t have to wander into these realms of the future potentials of Permaculture to see why it is so challenging. If you live in a modern, rich country like Australia and have tried to retrofit your house or even build a new house upon permaculture principles you will soon come up against the stupidity of those we have placed in power and the laws which they wield so readily. Laws which we support by living under without question. You will know the mental and physical work, at least initially, required to really take on a responsible and intelligent &#8216;Permie&#8217; life. And you will have felt the guilt that comes with knowing you could and should do more, guilt perpetuated by articles like Ted&#8217;s. </p>
<p>We know we can and must do more. We know the wonderful potentials of the smaller, cyclical and harmonious life. What I do not personally share with Ted is the fear that those coming into contact with this wondeful thing, which is really a reconstruction of the common sense and dreams of humanity throughout all time, are not changed by it. It is true that many will feel that they can have this cake and eat it too, on the couch in front of the T.v. probably, but the idea that you can and should change what is going on in your neighbour&#8217;s head, aggressively even, is more dangerous than you realise. If Permaculture is going to truly break with the past, forge a new way of life for humanity, it will lead by example, by just working, in a world of systems that are so clearly haemoragging and failing all around us. Do not underestimate the danger of doing harm with the best intentions, nor the power to do so much good by educating and applying yourself to what you believe to be the best way forward. When humanity comes to agreement over the best way to live, when we look to Mother Nature and find ourselves walking the same path because it &#8216;felt&#8217; right, not because we were ordered or persuaded to, then we will find a way of life truly worthy of the title &#8216;Perma-culture.&#8217;</p>
<p>The common sense of Permaculture is not the sense of modern industrial society. The dreams of Permaculture are not the dreams of this society either. Or rather modern industrial society has no place for the dreams of the majority of the people on this planet. It would rather create it&#8217;s own inflated, shallow, heady and addictive dreams from the glamorous echelons down, to distract the masses while &#8216;getting on with business&#8217;. It has not the ability to imagine animals may dream, that the earth may dream or that there are so many other ways to seeing, doing, growing, making, loving, living. It just doesnt want to know. For those of us born and (to the extent that we are awake) caught in &#8216;it&#8217;, we ARE it. This is of course the basis of Ted&#8217;s fear and logic in this article. The simple truth that we ARE IT, both the problem and the solution. </p>
<p>I would like to finish by saying I understand totally, where Ted&#8217;s coming from. Action is needed. People who truly know and believe in the potentials of Permaculture, who dare to imagine a Perma-culture need to step forward and speak. They will need skill, strength, courage, knowledge, humour and support. In short, heroes. The problem is not that there is a shortage of heroes, but you just aren&#8217;t going to hear about them in the normal channels. You have to look. They are quietly getting on with it. They wisely know the pitfalls of modern mass media and as hard as it might be for us to accept, those who are going to be touched by Permaculture are perhaps meant to be. The implications for those who aren&#8217;t are horrible. Tragic even. </p>
<p>So let&#8217;s spread it! People will do what they will with it. The beauty of it, the strength of it lies that unlike all other &#8216;movements&#8217; it does not come from on high (euphemism for out of men&#8217;s heads) but from down low. Its foundation is the most solid of all, the earth, and that for me is a great source of comfort and hope.</p>
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